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Fingerstyle Challenge of the Week #5 (The aftermath)

TrangOul

Insomaniac

Location: Germany

Joined: Feb 24 2008

You're so gonna hate me for this!
This week is Tremolo Week.

I want you to play the first half of ronito's Innocent Sea solo:

   TP      TP    TP      TP    TP             TP
    H       Q     H       Q     H.             H.
||--2-------0---|-5-------4---|-2------------|-2------------|
||o-----3---2---|-----3-------|------3---2---|------3---2---|
||--------------|-------------|--------------|--------------|
||----4---4---4-|---4---4-2---|----4---4---4-|----4---4---4-|
||o-2-----------|-2---------0-|-2------------|-2------------|
||--------------|-------------|--------------|--------------|
    E E E E E E   E E E E E E   E  E E E E E   E  E E E E E


  TP      TPTP  TP  TP  TP    TP             TP
  H       E E   Q   Q   Q     H.             H.
|-------------|-0---2-------|--------------|---------------|
|-3-------2-3-|---------3---|-0------------|-0-------------|
|-----0---2---|-----0-------|------0---2---|------0--------|
|---0---0---0-|---0---0-2-0-|----0---0---0-|----0---0-2-0--|
|-------------|-------------|--------------|---------------|
|-3-----------|-3-----------|-3------------|-3-------------|
  E E E E E E   E E E E E E   E  E E E E E   E  E E E E E

Same criteria we all know and love:
-Accuracy
-Consistency
-Fluidity
-Musicality

Now get started, my fellow guitards, guitarers and guitaricians. You have (roughly) one week.

------------------------------------------

First off, sorry for making this real brief: I didn't have the time to follow this thread and I don't wanna let you wait even more by wriitng an elaborate review of each entry. I chose not to extend the deadlike like kpcart suggested, mainly because the idea wasn't to make you all master tremolo (I am not close to mastering it even after 12 years) but to encourage people to try something new (the amount of discussion in this thread tells me that I succeeded in that matter). Also this is supposed to be a weekly contest but I disgress...

surreal - I totally forgot you've worked on this song before, but that's my bad. You play it at correct tempo and have that "tremolo feel". There are some wrong notes/unintentially plugged strings here and there but overall this is solid.

kenor - Very clean and pristine performance but with a few wrong notes as mentioned already. Other than that not much to say about this. Good job!

kpcart - Great playing! This is a very clear and steady entry only a veteran guitarist could deliver. I could nag about the metallic sound but that's probably caused by your recording technique.

Ennea - Was this your first time dealing with tremolo? If so, cheapeau! Your playing might be slow but I sense great accuracy and musicality. Make sure to keep it up!

musenji - see Ennea. This too is a really solid start. Too bad I can't see your right hand but telling by the sound I'd say you're right on track.

I hope everyone's okay with declaring kpcart the winner. Even though his performance is the best there's a good chance he put least effort of all participants into this challenge. Then again we will always have to deal with people being on different levels and it's not like he actually wins anything.

Congratulations to kpcart for hijacking this challenge! You may now host a new one.

More like tremoLOL. Anyone

natenmn

I haven't had a chance to trim my hedges recently. Thanks for visiting anyway...

Location: United States

Joined: Jul 17 2009

More like tremoLOL.

Anyone that hasn't practiced their tremolo much is going to have a bitch of a time trying to get a competent recording. A nice and even tremolo is really hard to get and takes a large investment of time.

I used to have a decently consistent tremolo, but after not practicing at all for over a year and a half, it is pretty horrible.

Here is a post that I made a long time ago with some good advice for getting a consistent tremolo (although getting a consistent tremolo will probably take more than a week for any normal human being):
Advice on how to get a consistent tremolo

Oh yeah I remember playing

Ennea

humhum..

Location: Germany

Joined: Apr 09 2010

Oh yeah I remember playing this - horribly.

I have some real problem with tremolo-ing (?) anything except the e-string. Is there some kinda trick to it or is it only a lack of practice ?

I'm assuming you can only

natenmn

I haven't had a chance to trim my hedges recently. Thanks for visiting anyway...

Location: United States

Joined: Jul 17 2009

I'm assuming you can only tremolo on the 1st string due to the flailing and hitting of other strings when you try it on anything else. If that is the case, then my advice is to do the majority of your practice on the 2nd and 3rd strings. You will have to deal with hitting other strings until you can control your fingers enough not to. Other than that, yes you will need a lot of practice. Getting a good tremolo is a fairly slow process for most people.

I'll actually repost my tremolo advice from the other thread here since it has a part that seemed to directly apply to what you asked and may help others:

Some good practice advice that helped me with my tremolo:

  1. Go slow at first and pay attention to the evenness between each stroke.
  2. Start off practicing your pami or piami patterns with all strokes on the same string. Doing this will help you to hear what you play a bit better so you can even it out.
  3. Primarily practice on strings other than the 1st. Practicing on the first string can give a bad habit of wildly flailing your fingers around which may cause you to unintentionally hit other strings when you play tremolo on say the 2nd or 3rd strings.
  4. Count out each stroke with numbers that differ from the number of total strokes for each pattern. Basically count to 3 or 5 for a four stroke pami pattern, and count to either 4 or 6 for a five stroke piami pattern. The reason for this is to create an even smoothness.

Here is a little tab that I just made that takes all four of those into account. The numbers on the top are what you would either count out in your mind or physically say. The letters on the bottom correspond to your fingers (p = thumb, a = ring, m = middle, i = index). While this isn't the only pattern you should practice, it is extremely helpful for developing proper technique.

     1  2  3  1  2  3  1  2     3  1  2  3  1  2  3  1     2  3  1  2  3  1  2  3
     P  A  M  I  P  A  M  I     P  A  M  I  P  A  M  I     P  A  M  I  P  A  M  I  
E||--------------------------|--------------------------|--------------------------||
B||--0--0--0--0--0--0--0--0--|--2--2--2--2--2--2--2--2--|--3--3--3--3--3--3--3--3--||
G||--------------------------|--------------------------|--------------------------||
D||--------------------------|--------------------------|--------------------------||
A||--------------------------|--------------------------|--------------------------||
E||--------------------------|--------------------------|--------------------------||

Counting each stroke out in the way described is probably the thing that helped smooth out my tremolo the most. The reason for this is because the mind will usually start off by making a small natural timing gap between each PAMI set. It would sort of be like "PAMI PAMI PAMI PAMI" with the spaces representing timing gaps. Counting a four stroke pattern in threes would make it "PAM IPA MIP AMI" thus preventing you from continuously and unintentionally adding a small timing gap between the I of a previous set and the P of a new one. Eventually as you get faster and faster you'll stop physically counting (you wont be able to keep up XD) and gaps will disappear.

I hope that made sense lol. It is a little difficult to explain in text.

Unfortunately, tremolo is something you need to practice a shitload... and is something you can easily lose. I used to be proud of mine, but now it sucks horribly D:

Oh ****. I havn't done

Bhael

Location: Newcastle, UK

Joined: Feb 18 2010

Oh ****. I havn't done tremolo in months, so my technique's rusty as hell XD.

I am very interested but only

karathrow

Joined: Oct 26 2010

I am very interested but only have a very basic understanding of tremolo so Idunno about this.

also since nobody else posted it (hope eric doesnt mind, figured an example would be nice)

For a second I was gonna be

StrangeJam

Da Manliness

Joined: Aug 23 2009

For a second I was gonna be like. KARA LOOKS JUST LIKE SURRY OM-
But then I looked twice. and I was like. Oh. Okay.

So I know tremolo is a tough

TrangOul

Insomaniac

Location: Germany

Joined: Feb 24 2008

So I know tremolo is a tough one, but I thought it might be worth the try anyway.
However, if you guys feel like this is too much for our little contest... just tell me. I've got a backup challenge.

I'll have a go for sure.

Bhael

Location: Newcastle, UK

Joined: Feb 18 2010

I'll have a go for sure.

O_o, arhh, well i did learn

Clanver

Pixelfingers cant play

Location: Germany, Kiel

Joined: Jan 03 2009

O_o, arhh, well i did learn it for a bit, half a year ago but . .

well i at least will try xD, dunno about the recording though

The only thing I'm worried

Ennea

humhum..

Location: Germany

Joined: Apr 09 2010

The only thing I'm worried about is that this may be impossible for beginner guitarists who want to join :P But I like that you guys all try out different techniques to practice, hooray for variety!

And thanks nate! Always so helpful <3

I'll have a crack at it, but

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

I'll have a crack at it, but even professional guitarists say that a healthy tremolo takes a monument of time and dedication to develop. Took the following quote from the Delcamp forums:

"You need to practice very slowly for a long period of time. The virtuoso Grisha Goryachev said in an interview that his father – who was his teacher – had him practice tremolo very slowly for TWO YEARS." (caps his, not mine)

Here are some links to threads from the forums:

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1480
http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53989
http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2397

----------

And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

Ok I have to admit if you

Ennea

humhum..

Location: Germany

Joined: Apr 09 2010

Ok I have to admit if you NEVER played tremolo before this will be impossible to master, but I was assuming we all did try it one way or another :/

We still have a whole week to sharpen our skills, it should be enough for at least 50-60BPM or so.

Otherwise we can vote :P But I'm in for tremolo practice

Yeah, I would just warn

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

Yeah, I would just warn against people who haven't ever done it before, trying to get it at tempo in one week, because it's not possible (barring some ungodly circumstance where they practiced something exactly like tremolo) and would just damage their chances of learning a healthy tremolo in the future!

----------

And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

Eh, I really don't want to

surreal

Eric: tank,godlike

Location: Arizona

Joined: Jan 04 2009

Eh, I really don't want to bother recording this a second time.

Guess I'll just wait another week, what a drag.

fuck me! I have been

Lemoncobbler

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Location: SoCal

Joined: Dec 22 2010

fuck me!
I have been practicing this song for a month already and I'm not even cutting it close to how its supposed to sound.

LETS DELAY THE DEADLINE TIL A WHOLE NOTHER YEAR SO I HAVE TIME TO PRACTICE.

Want the backup

TrangOul

Insomaniac

Location: Germany

Joined: Feb 24 2008

Want the backup challenge?

YES / NO / CANCEL

NO, FUCK BACKUPS

surreal

Eric: tank,godlike

Location: Arizona

Joined: Jan 04 2009

NO, FUCK BACKUPS

I don't need a backup, I need

Ennea

humhum..

Location: Germany

Joined: Apr 09 2010

I don't need a backup, I need a CHALLENGE!!

Re: I don't need a backup, I need

Bhael

Location: Newcastle, UK

Joined: Feb 18 2010

Ennea said

I don't need a backup, I need a CHALLENGE!!

So, words on the street that

Ennea

humhum..

Location: Germany

Joined: Apr 09 2010

So, words on the street that Surreal wants to do a re-recording ? Thats what I heard!

I'm pretty sure that's what

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

I'm pretty sure that's what Surreal said.

Like I said, I'm in for this one. It still encourages people to practice, and maybe try something unique, so I think it's a good thing!

I just think it would be unrealistic to expect everyone to be able to post it at tempo AND sound good. That's all. A little pre-emptive defense for everybody. :D

----------

And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

Re: Eh, I really don't want to

Lemoncobbler

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Location: SoCal

Joined: Dec 22 2010

surreal said

Wow! Theres nothing in this world that I look forward to more than re-recording me playing this great song.

Re: I don't need a backup, I need

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

Ennea said

I don't need a backup, I need a CHALLENGE!!

A real challenge: record a perfect take of Trang's last challenge, Mabe Village--now that you thought you were done with it. Throw in the first four measures, include a repeat of the main section, and put it up on the site as a recording.

----------

And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

Re: Eh, I really don't want to

surreal

Eric: tank,godlike

Location: Arizona

Joined: Jan 04 2009

Lemoncobbler said

surreal said

Wow! Theres nothing in this world that I look forward to more than re-recording me playing this great song.

.
..
...
....
.....

My submission

surreal

Eric: tank,godlike

Location: Arizona

Joined: Jan 04 2009

My submission

Tips for this specific piece

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

Tips for this specific piece because I ain't got no beef. I look at this as a chance to share ideas on tremolo practicing. So, I guess call this,

"Hey guys, this is EXACTLY how I am practicing this thing:"

First, master the left hand fingerings. No point in playing notes if they're the wrong notes. Don't practice tremolo with your right hand at first. Just play the melody note once after each bass note.

So instead of the final product which will be p-a-m-i, play p-a, p-m, or p-i, whichever is the most comfortable. Get it to the point where you feel like you can get that perfect every time. Not at tempo necessarily, but more than half.

Audio Example

Then, play the other two. For example, if you started out playing p-a and have mastered that, then play p-m and p-i and master those. The reason? Because you have to get used to all three of those fingers being in the same spatial relationship to the thumb, cross-wise.

Then play p-m-i. If you've mastered everything so far, p-m-i should feel pretty "intuitive". But p-a-m, which is next, might not. It didn't for me. It took a bit of doing to get used to p-a-m. Oh, that came out wrong. Wow. Anyway, the reason to do these is because that is the order the upper fingers will play--m will come after a, and i will come after m.

Once you can play all THAT stuff, then you can move on to p-a-m-i. But SLOWLY. And actually, staccato. Your m stroke should be placed quickly enough that it cuts off the a note, same with i after m. What this does is emphasize accurate placement, which is paramount when you speed it up, because you'll be going too fast to think about it.

Audio Example II

****************

I have already done previous exercises that help with the "keeping your right hand at the correct angle" aspect of tremolo. Basically, my hand always "wants" to be in arpeggio position with one finger to a string. This clearly doesn't work for tremolo. If you have this tendency as well (and it's natural for fingerpickers), then you have to do something about it because a-m-i obviously have to be lined up on the same string.

Practice just resting the three melody fingers on an upper string, while the thumb hops from string to string below them. They have to get used to remaining in the same position while the bass moves--another problem I had.

If you find that your tremolo is irregular (say you notice, as I do, that a-m-i seem to come in one burst with the thumb separate from them), then you have to fix that too. That's where doing tremolo on one string comes in. You have to be able to hit all four fingers in succession, continuously, without really hearing a huge difference between them. It even helps to accent with different fingers:

PamiPamiPami
AmipAmipAmip
MipaMipaMipa (Mysidian India Pale Ale?)
IpamIpamIpam

Then you can group in groups other than 4

2: PaMi, AmIp, so on
3: PamIpaMipAmi, so on
5: PamipAmipaMipamIpami, so on

****************************************

Okay I'm done. I just thought that it would be good to give people some practice tools, as I've read quite a bit of material on the subject. Some of them were said by Nate in the thread he linked (definitely read that). Others were discussed in the threads I linked. I just thought I would show how I'm integrating them into a purposeful practice strategy. (Side note, this is not normally how I practice. I usually have pretty terrible practice habits. I don't know why for tremolo I'm suddenly all organized.)

And I wanted to show that it's not just like, "oh yeah, practice the final product until it gets better and better". It's more like putting together pieces of a puzzle.

...Okay, okay, I really just wanted some company at 3:30 in the morning. >_>

----------

And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

Re: My submission

Ennea

humhum..

Location: Germany

Joined: Apr 09 2010

surreal said

My submission

Nice editing! But the guitar doesn't come out too well, do it again!

Fucking fine God dammit

surreal

Eric: tank,godlike

Location: Arizona

Joined: Jan 04 2009

Fucking fine

God dammit

Re: Fucking fineGod dammit

Ennea

humhum..

Location: Germany

Joined: Apr 09 2010

surreal said

Fucking fine

God dammit

Nice entry :) I knew my faith would be rewarded!!

[email protected], how's your progress so far ? Mine is... meh :/ Very much meh...

I can play it pretty much

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

I can play it pretty much perfect at 50 bpm. Surreal is playing it at 80. I think if I can get 60 by Sunday I would be very, very happy. But even if I could get a clean, consistent 50 (where I know I've got it and I'm not just trying to get one "lucky" take), I'd be happy.

----------

And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

80 BPM FAGGOTS REPRESENT

surreal

Eric: tank,godlike

Location: Arizona

Joined: Jan 04 2009

80 BPM FAGGOTS REPRESENT

You kinda made it into a jig

auriplane

Joined: Sep 06 2008

You kinda made it into a jig :-O I'm dancing instead of sad!

Badada, badada, badada, badada...

Should be badadada, badadada, badadada, no?

----------

Auriplane!!

Re: You kinda made it into a jig

surreal

Eric: tank,godlike

Location: Arizona

Joined: Jan 04 2009

Yeah you're right, I've been such a fool.

meh

kenor

The Cardsharp

Location: Czech Republic

Joined: Jun 04 2009

meh

EDIT: f**k, I really need to learn to read tabs properly. I guess my entry does not count.

----------

The simulacrum is never that which conceals the truth - it is the truth which conceals that there is none. The simulacrum is true.

The incorrect note you have

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

The incorrect note you have (measures 3 and 4) is, fortunately, pretty easy to correct.

If I were you, I would delete the embedded video and practice with the corrected note, and re-record. You still have plenty of time for that.

...If not, hey, Surreal also has a note that is incorrect, and I don't think anyone else is going to approach you guys. I know I can't.

*******************

And correction on my last post: I no longer think I can play perfectly at 100. (From now on I'm going to talk about this piece as if it were in 6/8, not 3/4, because that's how I'm thinking about it. So the original tempo is somewhere between 152 and 160.)

I'm fighting with a kink at around 90 bpm.

----------

And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

I want to get lost amongst

Kabukibear

Happy Strumming!

Location: Palm Beach Gardens, Florida

Joined: Mar 22 2007

I want to get lost amongst your raven locks.
surreal <3 foeva

Re: You kinda made it into a jig

Kabukibear

Happy Strumming!

Location: Palm Beach Gardens, Florida

Joined: Mar 22 2007

auriplane said

You kinda made it into a jig :-O I'm dancing instead of sad!

Badada, badada, badada, badada...

Should be badadada, badadada, badadada, no?

it's that damn ring finger. always being such a bitch and late to the party.

surreal - tremelo is messy,

kpcart

Joined: Feb 12 2012

surreal - tremelo is messy, it sounds like triplets for most of it. need to give more oomph on the 'a' finger, maybe your nails are the wrong lengths? also some of the base notes arent held long enough and should have more emphasis put on them, need to work out a better left hand pregression.

kp better bring it, talkin

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

kp better bring it, talkin smack like that

----------

And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

Re: surreal - tremelo is messy,

kpcart

Joined: Feb 12 2012

kpcart said

surreal - tremelo is messy, it sounds like triplets for most of it. need to give more oomph on the 'a' finger, maybe your nails are the wrong lengths? also some of the base notes arent held long enough and the trebles should be shaped and phrased, have more emphasis put on them.

Re: surreal - tremelo is messy,

kpcart

Joined: Feb 12 2012

i meant the trebles there, not thats why edited

still smack with no

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

still smack with no disclaimer, therefore need vid of you doing tremolo plzthx

----------

And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

Re: still smack with no

kpcart

Joined: Feb 12 2012

what do you mean smack? its just obvious observations. im new here, so i dont know the protocol, if its not okay to make criticism (contstructive), i wont do it again.

i will make you a video then.

Generally speaking, if

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

Generally speaking, if someone is posting a recording in the recording section, constructive criticism is good.

In a contest thread, usually it is the contest runner who critiques, as it is their job to judge pieces.

It's not quite that simple of course, but it would take a while to explain the exceptions. And my opinion could be different from the next person's.

I also just wanted to see another recording posted. :-) The more, the better!!!

----------

And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

no problem, i will do one,

kpcart

Joined: Feb 12 2012

no problem, i will do one, these little comps look like fun, and this is a piece i will actually want to learn and record. i will try to upload by tomorrow, and then later will also do a recording of the full song, it seems the 'video game guitar' equivalent of the 'classical guitar' recuerdos de alhambra :)

my background is russian guitar, where 5 note tremelo is more common (p,i,a,m,i) just like in flamenco - but the bass is played freestroke like on classical guitar tremelo - flamenco players use a deep rest stroke for the thumb notes, but ill probably do this in 4 note (p,a,m,i) like the original which i just heard on youtube. 4 note has the base moving faster, but 5 note sounds more tremelo effect (watch paco de lucia on youtube), but more difficult to do at like 70-80bpm.

Re: meh

Bhael

Location: Newcastle, UK

Joined: Feb 18 2010

kenor said

meh

EDIT: f**k, I really need to learn to read tabs properly. I guess my entry does not count.

That's some seriously good tremelo Kenor. You may have put me off submitting an entry :P. It's a shame about the incorrect bars - maybe Trang will let you off.

Re: meh

Ennea

humhum..

Location: Germany

Joined: Apr 09 2010

Bhael said

You may have put me off submitting an entry :P

That's a lame excuse ^^ We all suck in comparison, and thats what I will prove you all on sunday!! >:O

Im just gonna start

fatalfable

Location: New York, New York City

Joined: May 13 2009

Im just gonna start practicing this today. After seeing kenor's post I feel like not even trying considering this is my first time attempting tremolo lol

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Visual snow makes you want to go boom.
""jajajaja?" are you trying to make yourself sound like a fatass?"

I am sorry guys, I didn't

kenor

The Cardsharp

Location: Czech Republic

Joined: Jun 04 2009

I am sorry guys, I didn't mean to discourage you :(

----------

The simulacrum is never that which conceals the truth - it is the truth which conceals that there is none. The simulacrum is true.

since im almost a total

Clanver

Pixelfingers cant play

Location: Germany, Kiel

Joined: Jan 03 2009

since im almost a total newbie at tremolo, im not even trying to record :o