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lonlonjp's opinion regarding gametabs - page 2

I don't understand how this

tiganior1

The following post may contain mature humour, violence and coarse language which is not suitable for younger audiences. Parental discretion is advised.

Location: Look behind you

Joined: Apr 09 2010

I don't understand how this is violating anything. I mean I don't see your typical band/music group getting offended when someone makes a tab of a song.

Furthermore these tabs are purely recreational, and are in no way making any monetary profit, or used for proprietary purposes. So if people are thing caring about user-driven tablature projects, we can slap on a big disclaimer at the bottom of every tab.

"This tab is purely recreational and is not to be used for personal monetary or proprietary gain without the original composer's consent. You are entitled use under educational and recreational purposes...yadda, yadda, yadda."

Re: Come on people, he's Japanese

Kabukibear

Happy Strumming!

Location: Palm Beach Gardens, Florida

Joined: Mar 22 2007

Then create a thread to talk about the "things that matter," instead of derailing this one into some metaphysical musings on the nature of man. You've every right not to be bothered if this particular conversation is beneath you.

Re: I'd like to point out that

Kabukibear

Happy Strumming!

Location: Palm Beach Gardens, Florida

Joined: Mar 22 2007

natenmn said

I'd like to point out that while there is an inherent copyright law when something is created, I'm pretty sure that doesn't apply to anything on this site or from Youtube covers due to that fact that it was all made without permission from the original copyright holder. Although I could be wrong, as I don't remember copyright laws as well as I used to, I think that inherent copyright is nullified when original copyright is infringed upon.

If the above really is the case, then all arrangements/transcriptions are not inherently copyrighted to the arranger/transcriber unless given expressed permission by the original composer/copyright holder. My arrangements would not copyrighted to me and lonlonjp's would not be copyrighted to him.

Fair use and a few other things make this whole thing a bit hazy, though.

Looks like you're correct. I just looked it up at the U.S. Copyright Office and it states:

How much do I have to change in order to claim copyright in someone else's work?
Only the owner of copyright in a work has the right to prepare, or to authorize someone else to create, a new version of that work. Accordingly, you cannot claim copyright to another's work, no matter how much you change it, unless you have the owner's consent.

What we do pretty much counts

Jacob31593

Location: Tampa, FL

Joined: Jan 04 2009

What we do pretty much counts as teaching
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

Good find, Jacob--if anything

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

Good find, Kabuki--that's certainly logical, and what I always thought would be right. Otherwise it would be like saying "if you stole some food, you still have the right to not have it stolen from you." ...Okay that analogy is inaccurate. It would be like saying, "if you stole some seeds, but then planted them and they grew into a tree, you have some right to the tree."

Good find, Jacob--if anything exonerates GT it would be numbers 1 and 4. Generally speaking 3 doesn't help us because we usually tab out entire songs--and we post recorded examples, which are usually links to YouTube where people have posted the actual OST music.

I do struggle with the fact that we post links to direct copies of the original music, esp. in cases where the soundtrack can be purchased, and most people wanting to learn never even owned the game in the first place--just played it on an emulator.

Still, in this niche realm, doing so is more likely to result in purchase of music, sheet music, etc. than in the realm of "normal" music, which people just jack off of peer-sharing networks to avoid having to give anything in exchange for what they take from the productive effort of others.

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And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

The more I think about

BacardiBreezer

My life is a chip in your pile. Ante up!

Location: NE Ohio

Joined: Aug 16 2010

The more I think about it...the more I feel like he's getting a *bit* too uppity about something he shares freely...

We can only hope someone

surreal

Eric: tank,godlike

Location: Arizona

Joined: Jan 04 2009

We can only hope someone who's a lawyer joins the community.

Re: The more I think about

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

BacardiBreezer said

The more I think about it...the more I feel like he's getting a *bit* too uppity about something he shares freely...

Agreed, because he never said "don't use this guys"

I think he could just be plain wrong about GT hurting the video game music community. It would be interesting to see his opinion on OCRemix. After a videogame developer literally got OCRemixers to remix old themes for the new Street Fighter game, that basically legitimized THAT site.

I wonder if anyone has asked him the questions or brought up points that are being brought up here. I guess I should read the original comment thread...

As far as him being too cocky/arrogant/etc (I think it was said previously), well no. He does some of the best classical/acoustic arranging work I've seen, better than all but a handful of works on this site, and he does it voluminously. And that's saying something cause this site is fantastic.

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And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

I'd also like to point out

natenmn

I haven't had a chance to trim my hedges recently. Thanks for visiting anyway...

Location: United States

Joined: Jul 17 2009

I'd also like to point out that the fair use criteria doesn't actually exonerate anything. What is considered fair use is decided on a case by case basis. Also, there is no precedence set by previous cases that are considered fair use. For example, an arrangement for Zelda's Lullaby by Archard may be deemed as fair use and an arrangement of the same song by Kabukibear may not be, even if Archard's was deemed as fair use first and Kabuki's fits the same criteria. This is part of the reason why things get hazy.

The most pertinent part of fair use usually seems to stem from this (snipped from jacob's post (which was snipped from the official website)):

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole

The less the amount of the original work that is used, the more leeway there usually is. Obviously, this isn't always the case, though. Parodies and educational usages are often more easily proven as fair use, for example.

Re: I'd also like to point out

Jacob31593

Location: Tampa, FL

Joined: Jan 04 2009

oh boy, i sure hope no one is willing to waste time and money on something indefinite

I think regardless of the

karathrow

Joined: Oct 26 2010

I think regardless of the legal loopholes we all come from a place of passion for music and games and our intentions if anything is to celebrate where they meet. We do not have an evil plot to destroy the video game or video game music industry and I think if anything gametabs does more good than harm.

I learned to play guitar because of this site and through the support of the tabs and help from the people here. I would have no use for guitar related things if it weren't for this site. I would have no interest in certain songs or music of certain games until I came to this site. I CERTAINLY would never fathom buying some kind of songbook or whatever, but you can bet now if I ever got a hold of a nice one from any game I like I would buy it in a heartbeat.

Maybe I'm just the odd man out and nobody else has discovered something that has lead to the support of games, music or both but I'd like to believe that we do more good than harm.

Besides if these games or songbooks are out of print then the only people that are getting ripped off are resellers, no? Hell how many of these games even release official soundtracks for sale or songbooks? I realize its more common now but I cant imagine every game has done it.

I don't know maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way but I can't see how we as a community are toxic to musicians or gaming.

EDIT: Oh and as for the Musenji thing about "are people even buying these games?": I for one am. I've purchased multiple copies of some games in many cases due to wanting them on multiple platforms or the game being stolen/broken/scratched/etc. I've only pirated a few games in my whole life and many times most were just archivals/backups of games I already legitimately own.

Re: I think regardless of the

natenmn

I haven't had a chance to trim my hedges recently. Thanks for visiting anyway...

Location: United States

Joined: Jul 17 2009

karathrow said

I would have no interest in certain songs or music of certain games until I came to this site. I CERTAINLY would never fathom buying some kind of songbook or whatever, but you can bet now if I ever got a hold of a nice one from any game I like I would buy it in a heartbeat.

I totally understand this, as I've actually imported a few tab books from Japan in the past. I don't think I would have ever have done that if not for Gametabs. I mean there are plenty of free alternatives on here, but they gave me that thirst for more. I'm of the opinion that the tabs/recordings from this website help to promote official soundtracks and related stuff.

Re: I think regardless of the

karathrow

Joined: Oct 26 2010

natenmn said

karathrow said

I would have no interest in certain songs or music of certain games until I came to this site. I CERTAINLY would never fathom buying some kind of songbook or whatever, but you can bet now if I ever got a hold of a nice one from any game I like I would buy it in a heartbeat.

I totally understand this, as I've actually imported a few tab books from Japan in the past. I don't think I would have ever have done that if not for Gametabs. I mean there are plenty of free alternatives on here, but they gave me that thirst for more. I'm of the opinion that the tabs/recordings from this website help to promote official soundtracks and related stuff.

Think about things that are out of print/date too. I don't want to use an actual game and put my foot in my mouth but let's just say Actraiser. Actraiser is out of print and I cant imagine it has songbooks that are in print right? So someone who loves actraiser comes here and sees Bacardis Fillmore tab and gets hype and learns it. Then he's like I wonder who wrote the music for this? Said person finds out and then looks up his other works maybe even his more recent works and buys a cd or a songbook from some new game, etc.

I realize this is far from realistic expectation but I do think there is a lot of creative potential to our site and it does bother me that Lonlon would condemn it so offhandedly. I'd love to have an actual conversation with him about this in depth or hear from someone who does.

EDIT: Oh also game symphonies/orchestra stuff has been more popular of late so more people learning about game music =more revenue for them right?

Re: I think regardless of the

natenmn

I haven't had a chance to trim my hedges recently. Thanks for visiting anyway...

Location: United States

Joined: Jul 17 2009

karathrow said

Think about things that are out of print/date too. I don't want to use an actual game and put my foot in my mouth but let's just say Actraiser. Actraiser is out of print and I cant imagine it has songbooks that are in print right? So someone who loves actraiser comes here and sees Bacardis Fillmore tab and gets hype and learns it. Then he's like I wonder who wrote the music for this? Said person finds out and then looks up his other works maybe even his more recent works and buys a cd or a songbook from some new game, etc.

I realize this is far from realistic expectation

I actually think this part of your post is spot on and I don't think it's unrealistic at all. I mean, it doesn't even have to be out of print. Either way, it definitely raises awareness.

My example would be auriplane's comment here. Specifically this part:

"I never played this game, though. Is the other music in it good too? Thanks for posting this ^-^"

She might not be running off to buy the game or the official soundtrack, but Bhael's tab apparently piqued her interest, and her doing either of those wouldn't be farfetched.

Heh, I never actually asked

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

Heh, I never actually asked whether people were buying them--I just assume that a fair number weren't. But I also assume that the number of people who do or did, is much higher on a site like this, than on some other kind of forum. The respect here for the producers seems to be much higher than average.

I actually purchased a used copy of Guardian Legend, specifically because I knew that my favorite OCRemixer had done several remixes from that game--and I wanted to listen to the music first, and then listen to the remixes. Turned out it was a kickass awesome game! One of my favorites now, and probably the only one that has lots of spots that are "Nintendo hard" that I've actually beaten.

(I will caveat a note on the side: of course no one has an evil plot to destroy anything! For one, nobody ever actually thinks their evil plot is evil. :-) Second, most people who pirate thousands of normal music mp3s don't have a plot to destroy the music industry. Their plot is to get a benefit for free at the expense of someone else's effort, and they succeed at it.)

----------

And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

Re: Heh, I never actually asked

karathrow

Joined: Oct 26 2010

musenji said

Heh, I never actually asked whether people were buying them--I just assume that a fair number weren't. But I also assume that the number of people who do or did, is much higher on a site like this, than on some other kind of forum. The respect here for the producers seems to be much higher than average.

I actually purchased a used copy of Guardian Legend, specifically because I knew that my favorite OCRemixer had done several remixes from that game--and I wanted to listen to the music first, and then listen to the remixes. Turned out it was a kickass awesome game! One of my favorites now, and probably the only one that has lots of spots that are "Nintendo hard" that I've actually beaten.

(I will caveat a note on the side: of course no one has an evil plot to destroy anything! For one, nobody ever actually thinks their evil plot is evil. :-) Second, most people who pirate thousands of normal music mp3s don't have a plot to destroy the music industry. Their plot is to get a benefit for free at the expense of someone else's effort, and they succeed at it.)

If you really think there is no ethical difference between gametabs and warez or other filesharing/torrent/piracy sites then I don't know what to say to you.

Yes the road to hell is paved with good intentions but the spirit of gametabs is far more noble and constructive than peer to peer piracy/filesharing sites.

I don't think Guardian Legend

auriplane

Joined: Sep 06 2008

I don't think Guardian Legend is very hard... until the freaking eyeball bosses. ARGH

DIE EYEBALLS DIE

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Auriplane!!

This thread make me sad :(

Pasto

Eat your Pasta ! ! !

Joined: Mar 25 2009

This thread make me sad :(

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"Pasta Is Good For You" - The Pasta Guy

Re: This thread make me sad :(

karathrow

Joined: Oct 26 2010

Pasto said

This thread make me sad :(

Your name is uncomfortably close to pasta. Makes me hungry :(

Re: Heh, I never actually asked

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

karathrow said

If you really think there is no ethical difference between gametabs and warez or other filesharing/torrent/piracy sites then I don't know what to say to you.

Yes the road to hell is paved with good intentions but the spirit of gametabs is far more noble and constructive than peer to peer piracy/filesharing sites.

Did you read my post? I thought I made it clear that to me there IS a difference.

Yeah I just checked...I specifically said that I thought the respect for producers was higher here. How can that be misconstrued?

[edit] hey forumpeople, we talked about it in chat, it was a moot issue. I was trying to eliminate the "good intentions" argument, showing why it's a bad argument to use (because others can claim it just as easily). I was also taking a pot shot at piraters in general, which was not meant to be construed as an attack on people in this forum posting tabs.

----------

And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

Re: This thread make me sad :(

auriplane

Joined: Sep 06 2008

Mmm, pasta.

Hey, wait. Isn't he Italian? Is this part of some kind of conspiracy to increase Italy's world dominance via pasta???

MMM, pasta.

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Auriplane!!

Ehm . . . No way i'm into

Pasto

Eat your Pasta ! ! !

Joined: Mar 25 2009

Ehm . . . No way i'm into that plan . . . ! ! !
Now please continue to eat your pasta ! Is so tasty !

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"Pasta Is Good For You" - The Pasta Guy

MMM PASTA

auriplane

Joined: Sep 06 2008

MMM PASTA

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Auriplane!!

Are you talking about the big

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

Are you talking about the big eyeballs that lay the long beams down, or the bosses with lots of eyeballs? they both get pretty ridic imo. The red versions of each for sure.

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And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

No, we're talking about

TrangOul

Insomaniac

Location: Germany

Joined: Feb 24 2008

No, we're talking about pasta.

...pasta...onnomnomnomnomnom.

Shrurikam

Joined: Dec 01 2010

...pasta...onnomnomnomnomnom...

Good. It's all about Pasta

Pasto

Eat your Pasta ! ! !

Joined: Mar 25 2009

Good.
It's all about Pasta now.

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"Pasta Is Good For You" - The Pasta Guy

Er... Can we make an

auriplane

Joined: Sep 06 2008

Er...

Can we make an exception for pizza? I've been making a homemade pizza for the last couple hours, and... well... I was hoping it was okay with Italy.

>_>;

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Auriplane!!

Tomatoes were originally

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

Tomatoes were originally brought FROM America TO Italy. You don't have to ask nothin', sista. Pizza would be nowhere without tomatoes.

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And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

That's it, I'm gonna make

TrangOul

Insomaniac

Location: Germany

Joined: Feb 24 2008

That's it, I'm gonna make pasta now.

There is a lot of pizza

Pasto

Eat your Pasta ! ! !

Joined: Mar 25 2009

There is a lot of pizza without tomatoes . . . however you are right.
Thank you native american for tomatoes ! ! !
Btw : dear snail girl, pizza is ok as well to my plan . . . hem hem.
I mean Pizza is good food too. What pizza did you make ?

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"Pasta Is Good For You" - The Pasta Guy

^Diavolo.

Hakoria

Laon King

Location: gmt+1

Joined: Apr 03 2011

^Diavolo.

^ ♥

SalemJeanette

Save Your Tears.

Location: Popular Land.

Joined: Jul 03 2009

^ ♥

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23:33 Vic9mm said: its ture ida benn gone she took out like 3 kids before had what was that fat ass asian kid gonna do

Little J.

By the by, since none of the

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

By the by, since nobody apparently wrote a response to lonlon himself, I posted this reply to lonlon's comment:

"Then you have gotten the copyright holders' permission to post their works? I am a strong believer in copyright, but if you're posting arrangements without permission from the original copyright holders, then gametabs is no worse.

Plus, gametabs is a place where people go to learn how to play guitar by playing game music...many learn to play (and buy music) who would not otherwise.

I have deep respect for you as an arranger but I think that in this issue your statement is incorrect."

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And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

It might be wiser not to

auriplane

Joined: Sep 06 2008

It might be wiser not to press him, since some people like Lonlon tabs, and he hasn't said no before, and those people don't *want* him to say no.

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Auriplane!!

Honor before glory!

surreal

Eric: tank,godlike

Location: Arizona

Joined: Jan 04 2009

Honor before glory!

Don't want him to say no to

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

Don't want him to say no to what? Doing more ever again?

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And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

Re: Don't want him to say no to

surreal

Eric: tank,godlike

Location: Arizona

Joined: Jan 04 2009

no silly, to explicitly say to not post his tabs from here on, at least on this site of course.

Disregard lonlon, acquire

archard

Joined: Jan 11 2007

Disregard lonlon, acquire tablatures

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DANG

I'll engrave it under the

surreal

Eric: tank,godlike

Location: Arizona

Joined: Jan 04 2009

I'll engrave it under the royal mantle immediately sire.

The point is that he can't

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

The point is that he can't ask us not to because the music isn't his.

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And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

But would you want to be the

TrangOul

Insomaniac

Location: Germany

Joined: Feb 24 2008

But would you want to be the douche posting his arrangements against his wish?

Re: But would you want to be the

natenmn

I haven't had a chance to trim my hedges recently. Thanks for visiting anyway...

Location: United States

Joined: Jul 17 2009

TrangOul said

But would you want to be the douche posting his arrangements against his wish?

Bingo.

My list of tabs may be shrinking from 45 to like 10 soon XD

Re: The point is that he can't

auriplane

Joined: Sep 06 2008

musenji said

The point is that he can't ask us not to because the music isn't his.

He can ask all he wants. What you mean is people don't have to respect his wishes, which, while true, other people have already addressed.

FYI I took down my one lonlon tab when I saw the comment.

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Auriplane!!

Or, my comment could open up

musenji

Joined: Feb 02 2010

Or, my comment could open up a discussion with him because he's a rational man.

.......

:/

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And then I realized that the chord progression from Chrono Cross's Another World is the same progression as the chorus from Peace of Mind by Boston, and life was never quite the same.

Re: Disregard lonlon, acquire

Kabukibear

Happy Strumming!

Location: Palm Beach Gardens, Florida

Joined: Mar 22 2007

archard said

Disregard lonlon, acquire tablatures

That user pic still makes me smile.

There's one easy way to fix

SalemJeanette

Save Your Tears.

Location: Popular Land.

Joined: Jul 03 2009

There's one easy way to fix this problem: All you noobs should learn how play by ear :s

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23:33 Vic9mm said: its ture ida benn gone she took out like 3 kids before had what was that fat ass asian kid gonna do

Little J.

Re: Or, my comment could open up

Jacob31593

Location: Tampa, FL

Joined: Jan 04 2009

musenji said

Or, my comment could open up a discussion with him because he's a rational man.

.......

:/

hahahahahah, you guys should have seen some of the things he was saying in irc last night too, good ol musenji~

Re: But would you want to be the

BacardiBreezer

My life is a chip in your pile. Ante up!

Location: NE Ohio

Joined: Aug 16 2010

TrangOul said

But would you want to be the douche posting his arrangements against his wish?

He hasn't said no yet, and honestly he should know better than to post his music on the internet if that's the case...not only that but clearly showing the way he plays it.

I linked lonlonjp to this

SalemJeanette

Save Your Tears.

Location: Popular Land.

Joined: Jul 03 2009

I linked lonlonjp to this thread,
Let's wait for the final answer

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23:33 Vic9mm said: its ture ida benn gone she took out like 3 kids before had what was that fat ass asian kid gonna do

Little J.